The Fuck Does This Make Money?: “I’m chasing myself, not money”
A Q+A with Elle Hearns — head of the Marsha P. Johnson Institute and a shopping hobbyist.
The Fuck Does This Make Money?” is a Q+A about Money and Feelings.
This one is with Elle Hearns —shopping enthusiast, filmmaker, and head of the Marsha P. Johnson Institute, an organizing group by and for black transgender women.
When I asked her to do this interview, I said, “Isn’t it crazy how you can just ask people questions you actually want to know the answers to?”
She said, deadpan, “Yes, H. That’s what White men have been doing the entire time.”
Who are you/what do you do?
I am an artist, and a nonprofit executive director, consultant, and business owner.
Oh! I also own a production company — we’re called Forever Free Film, in Ohio.
Which parts of that make money?
Being a corporate and public speaker, my consultancy, being an executive director.
What do you spend your money on?
Clothes, makeup, Harper (my beautiful dog).
Right now I’m also putting a lot of money into saving, investing — a new venture for me. Protecting, multiplying your money is just as important as saving it, and I’m really passionate about this.
How do you spend your days?
I spend my time working for the most part — fundraising for MPJI, , editing film, coaching staff, giving speeches, doing interviews... my time is split between a lot of different things and it’s a lot of work in each place.
What do you do when you’re not working?
I try to sleep. Sleep is hard to come by — I am always interrupted by my creative processes, work, or Harper.
I try to do as much I can to make space for doing absolutely nothing regularly, at least weekly.
How do your values affect how you make money?
My values are the foundation of how I pursue and handle money.
I think a lot about how my values around money are shaped by how I grew up — my mother doesn’t like me to use any word close to poor, but... I knew how to struggle.
I learned how to make the best of anything.
What still surprises you about making money? Has that changed as you’ve made more money?
I wouldn’t say much surprised me as I made more money — but I am surprised by how long I went without advocating for myself. Oh, also:
I am always surprised by how much you can make from doing the absolute amount smallest possible.
Tell me about your class background without telling me your class background.
Growing up: I remember standing in line at the first of the month to receive government assistance. Looking for change in the car to get chicken nuggets.
I used to live in my car.
Now: I have a elevator in my building.
I also don’t take public transportation and I don’t drive myself.
Tell me about a decision you’ve made around how you make money that you’re proud of.
Huge corporations and universities used to pay me so little, and now I am able to negotiate.
I’m extremely proud of all the ways I am able to set boundaries around my worth — black women are often unpaid, underpaid, or not given opportunities at all.
I am proud of working with the speaking agency, and the other steps I’ve taken to make sure that I am able to negotiate, charge what I am worth.
Tell me about a decision you’ve made in how you make money that you’re NOT proud of.
Surviving on the streets — I try not to be guilty or ashamed of anything, but I don’t always feel that when I look back at this. But I am proud I survived.
Tell me about a choice around how you make money that you know was the right decision, but you still feel weird about.
As a fundraiser, I’m approached with different decisions about money all the time.
There was one particular corporation that offered us (the Marsha P. Johnson Institute) a donation — six figures.
It was a donation that I turned down because I didn’t trust the donor’s motives - it felt so weird to turn that down!
A six figure donation!
In times like that I return to my value system, and my intention.
I would never take money I didn’t believe in.
When money is involved you can’t trust anyone, including yourself.
But I try to work with people and groups I believe in so I can be proud of what I do.
I also try to seek counsel as often as I can.
When it comes to money, I will always make mistakes.
But I am chasing myself, not money so I can live with that.
Tell me a story about money that makes you feel hopeful.
The fact that I’ve been blessed to earn money utilizing my skills and my own knowledge — and pay that forward.
Whether it’s helping a young woman accepted into doctoral school or being able to just send money to my family — those are the moments when I feel most hopeful because I see what is possible to give.
I also hope that when I am able to demand more for myself, others are able to as well.
And maybe one day we will get to a place where money doesn’t mean so much.
What’s something you do for free, that you will never do for money? Why?
Hmmmmm.
H, I just answered this so profoundly and now I have to answer it again.
I would never to charge my friends to consult with them — I would do that for free.
I would never charge money to walk Harper. I mean I guess I pay someone to walk Harper though. So. Hm.
Maybe shopping. I would never do mystery shopping. I love to shop, I will shop with my money, someone else’s, whatever.
Other than that, I’m not sure. All of my talents are available to be commodified! (laughs)
PS — If you got yesterday‘s email and tried to sign up for writing for organizers, you couldn’t! The link was broken. Whoops. Here’s the right one.